One, anyone is free to accept or not whatever is said or claimed, equally. The author of this article is more than likely a leftist religious bigot with problems with people of faith (namely those who done pray or vote the way he would like). When it was time to go, I said, Mother, I wont be here tomorrow because Jack and I will be in the TV studio all day. She shook her head that she understood. Of course he can. Plastic Surgery, Daddy, Crackhead, Ariana Grande Plastic Surgery Latest News Update, Jennifer Westfeldt Plastic Surgery Before and After Pics, Stockard Channing Plastic Surgery Before and After Photos, Tori Amos Plastic Surgery Before And After. The shear duration of your career is impressive. Traduzioni in contesto per "dcouverte selon laquelle les" in francese-italiano da Reverso Context: La rcente dcouverte selon laquelle les fibres de coton cologiques, teintes naturellement, peuvent faciliter la vie des personnes sensibles aux champs lectromagntiques ou aux rayonnements provenant des crans d'ordinateur l'intresse beaucoup. Most D.Min programs focus on pastoral ministry only. But my mother was always there by his side, encouraging him, helping him. The Van Impes. Earned unknown B.A. None of them require any doctoral research or a dissertation. In fact, they were some of the first students. With knowing what is involved to get a doctorate, including all of the work that is involved, and the high attrition rate it seems hokey that some (not all) religious leaders would "purchase" a degree mill doctorate and then present themselves as doctors with the express purposes of gaining legitimate respect. (. She is also known for America's Future (2002), Day Eight: Planet Earth Forever and The Mark of the Beast. 248.852.2244. . That doesnt mean I am ignorant, because I know the founding fathers were smarter than mebut I recognize and honor greatness. Though, Im not really bothered by language. American Association for Adult and Continuing Education (AAACE), American Association for Higher Education and Accreditation (AAHEA), Accreditation Council for Distance Education (ACTDE), Accreditation Council for Online Academia (ACOHE), Accreditation Panel for Online Colleges and Universities (APTEC), Accrediting Commission International (ACI), American Accrediting Association of Theological Institutions, American Council of Private Colleges and Universities, American Association of Drugless Practitioners (ADP), Association of Distance Learning Programs (ADLP), Association of Private Colleges and Universities, Association for Online Academic Accreditation, Association for Online Academic Excellence, Board of Online Universities Accreditation (BOUA), Central American Council of Accreditation (CACA), Central States Consortium of Colleges & Schools, Distance and Online Universities Accreditation Council (DOUAC), Distance Learning International Accreditation Association (DEIAA), Distance Learning Quality Assurance Agency (DLQAA), European Accreditation Board of Higher Education (EABHE), Global Accredited Council for Business Association (GACBA), Global Accreditation Council for Business Education (GACBE), Global Accreditation Commission for Distance Education (GACDE), Global Accreditation Council for Online Academia, International Commission for Higher Education, International Accreditation Agency for Online Universities (IAAOU), International Accreditation Association for Online Education (IAAFOE), International Accreditation Commission (IAC), International Association Council of Engineering Professionals (IACEP), International Accreditation Commission for Online Universities (IACOU) (Kingston), International Accreditation Commission for Online Educational Institutions (IACOEI), International Accreditation Organization (IAO), International Education Ministry Accreditation Association, International Online Education Accrediting Board (IOEAB), North American Distance Learning Association (NADLA), National Academic Higher Education Agency (NACHE), National Accreditation and Certification Board (NACB), National College Accreditation Council (NCAC), National Commission of Accredited Schools (NCAS), National Distance Learning Accreditation Council (NDLAC), New Millennium Accrediting Partnership for Educators Worldwide, Organization for Online Learning Accreditation (OKOLA), Transworld Accrediting Commission Intl. Liberty is a fantastic school and seminary with rigorous academic standards. And no I dont care how you vote or practice your faith. Even do we cant claim that Rexella has had any cosmetic surgery or simply has good genes, we can definitely claim that she looks amazing. To his credit he did at least attempt an education at a real school. You believe life evolved from a rock. Frost or insisted that anyone should. Renowned evangelist and Bible prophecy expert Dr. Jack VanImpe, 88, was welcomed home to heaven on Saturday, January 18, received by the blessed Savior and Lord he had faithfully served in ministry for more than 70 years. I used to listen to Perry and thought he was so wise. John Hagees diploma from Assemblies of God University probably needs more research and clarification. And liberty certainly is not a bad school. Why Did The Samaritan Woman At The Well Have So Many Marriages? Suddenly, out of the blue, they were introduced as "Dr. Jack Van Impe and Dr. Rexella Van Imple" because they had BOTH purchased degree mill doctorates. In this new special, Dr. Rexella Van Impe is joined by Bible prophecy expert Dr. Carl Baugh to answer your most pressing questions about terrorism - and most importantly: Can the chaotic world we live in ever have peace? As for Andersonville, they also lack any credible accreditation. When the Bible means a physician, it uses the word physician at least in KJV, and I think most modern translations though I only checked ESV. If a Dmin a fluff degree? I kept envisioning her arrival on the other side, with the Lord reaching out His hand and saying, Welcome home.. All these televanglists are a bunch of C*nts Dr. ? However, imho, whether the honorary degree (which is usually a doctorate) is religious or secular, using the title "Dr." in a professional capacity based on this award alone, is at best unethical, at worst blatant deception. If you read the entire thing you would see that most of these people not only have honorary degrees but they also have fake earned degrees which is more problematic. I have close friends connected and ordained by these folks. This is however a Golden Gate University which is accredited by Western Association of Schools and Colleges (WASC) and has been since 1959, Golden State University (GSU) on the other hand is a private institution approved to operate by the California Bureau for Private Postsecondary Education. Not any more. (, Earned B.A. Earned M.A & PhD. Dont had out fake degrees and I will leave you alone. * Political Leader & Consultant (Not really true. Liberty University and other accredited Christian schools allow yoga classes (eastern mysticism) on their campus. I wont go into details about his defunct institution since its not a real school or a real degree but just a diploma listed. . FYI many students have completed PhDs in only a two or three years. Sounds more like a schoolyard bully that a supreme loving God. - Bachelor's Degree - Juris . At least you call yourself a Bishop and not a Doctor. Thats before even getting accepted. They are accredited only as a provider of continuing educational units(CEU). Although my husband had a strong call of God on his life and even then was especially anointed by the Holy Spirit, in the beginning years it was a struggle to get established and earn the respect of pastors and people. As I studied the Hebrew letters I answered in the negative and the pastor reached over and turned the page upright. Im just saying I would consider a person with an MDIv an expert. A CLASSIC MESSAGE OF HOPE FROM DR. JACK VAN IMPE. You could have someone with a graduate real degree in your list. As the Admin states, to which I will add, there are a lot of crazy and dishonest ( the overall subject of these pages), false witness believers and preachers, far too many! How about if preachers with earned doctorates stop using the titles as well? So who is the person that you were unable to mention? Fake degrees are exactly that Fake. * Radio Talk Show Host & TV Performer (Still not impressive. (. The enemy of our souls will exploit our love for this world to change doctrines. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them (Ezekiel 36:24 27). They sell degrees or have little to no standards for obtaining one. Rexella Van Impe was born on 29 November 1932 in Missouri, USA. Later, the federal government got involved in validating schools because of GI Bill funding after World War II (It was about federal $$$). I would rather earn a degree from an unaccredited school thats authorized to issue a degree by their state than to have a degree from some liberal accredited school like Harvard. They list later on that TSU has chosen to remain non-aligned with respect to accreditation.(, Doctor of Ministry, Southwest University, Alb. I would wager that if thats my tone in this piece then certainly no person would be off limits as long as they fit the criteria. I am a born again Christian and I love the lord with all my heart. Its a listing of facts. I did a web search for Dr. Anyone who bans dissenters are weak and should leave the kitchen. She is an actress and writer with an experience in American Television industry. if any bar at all. https://www.associationchristianeducators.net/1.html Warning people about scam artists is the right thing to do. The danger is in the following. Anyone can also claim, god told me, god spoke to me. without any recognized, accepted, reference discipline. Lastly, hes been dead a while and this list was primarily for the living with the exception of the guy who died after it was written. Anyone who can preach alongside Jessee Duplantis and appear on the Jim Bakker Show and not recognize them as being biblically illiterate and frauds has a major problem in discernment. No degree needed. He also attended North Texas State University where he received his Masters Degree in 1966. Now full payment for sin has been made. Originally from the states moved to dawson creek bc ran lumber mill Is that a fluff degree? Jack Leo Van Impe (/ m p i / IM-pee; February 9, 1931 - January 18, 2020) was an American televangelist known for his half-hour weekly television series Jack Van Impe Presents, an eschatological commentary on the news of the week through an interpretation of the Bible.The program airs around the world through both religious broadcasters and the purchase of paid programming time on . I updated the article to reflect this today. There will be religious peace during the Millennium. Its a tiny school in Tennessee that also goes by the name Omega Graduate School. Why claim a fake degree when no degree is needed? For some reason, they feel they do need a degree so they get a fake one from a diploma mill. Jack Van Impe and his wife Rexella Impe have appeared on TV for many years (good). Who Is Rexella Van Impe's Husband? which means that they left a lot of colleges off the list because they are not conservative colleges. In addition, it should be noted that no masters degree was ever earned or recognized for Lahaye. Its too broad of a degree to be a real expert in anything. in Religious Education from Midwestern Baptist College. This Ludwig Otto character also seems to have a host of deceptive degree listings and his website bios are absolutely outlandish. ), Master of English, University of Dallas literature and rhetoric (I assume this is legit), Master of Liberal Arts, Southern Methodist University history, philosophy, and literature (Seems legit. Jewish blood flowed in the Rhine Valley from the swords of zealous Crusaders who t hought their killing was in the will of God. His theological training came at Southwestern Bible Institute near Dallas where he was President of his class and a member of the College Concert Choir. I say this as many dont have the money to pay for counseling or insurance, but they are willing to give back to the church via mowing the lawn, fixing something, or simply devoting their time. Huh???? Really? Ask King David ! Just like the pharisees of old who loved to strut around in fancy garments, making long prayers and being in cohorts with the Roman governmentso too do these long for the admiration of peers, and important position and rank. Of course those who do will make claims that their qualifications, institutions and inspirations are adequate, if not self applied. But does she look like an 83 year old woman? After taking a few minutes to lookup James email address, it appears he might be offended because he also takes part in an organization that hands out fake degrees. ;-) ;-) | Jakob Info, 5 Theological Views That Need Burned At The Stake (#2 Prosperity Gospel) | Dust Off The Bible, 15 Pastors Who Makes Millions Of Dollars By Reading The Bible To You, 5 Theological Views That Need Burned At The Stake (#1: Dominionism) | Dust Off The Bible, 15 Religious Leaders That Make More Money Getting Out Of Bed Than You'll Make All Year | Dust Off The Bible, http://www.ministers-best-friend.com/FREE-Ordination-and-Honorary-Degrees-Masters-and-Doctorate-by-Newtonstein.html. A JD is a graduate level degree but not a Phd level. She smiled and patted my hand. Their survival in the face of almost certain annihilation must be called miraculous. See for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D0b11Syl9c&feat ure=related Add your Vote: 0 Comments Sadly, your credentials are straight made up. The accrediting process is to verify that the faculty are educated in the field they are teaching in, that study requirements are being met, and all kinds of ethical rules are recognized. https://www.uschristianu.net I said to her, Doctor, Mother is going to have a big crowd of welcomers in heaven!, Oh, Rexella, she said, Esther has been such a blessing to so many that when I get there, if I stand behind her, God wont even see me!, Moms funeral was a day of remembrance, a time of celebration and rejoicing, filled with flowers, friends, and beauty. I think youre correct Ed. Starting to see the pattern yet? I have heard Rod Parsley introducing his guest on his program as Dr. Perry Stone and Perry didnt correct himhe accepted the title. But she got her point across without resorting to shouting or violence. I actually kinda like Sid Roth but the supposed Dr.s on that list are fake. Earned BA in (unknown), from Azusa Pacific University (. Hitlers excuse for the holocaust was in large part the claim that the Jews had monopolized the wealth of Germany. She could take little or nothing and make it into a wonderful dinner. Whether its Semitic culture, church history, or languages. * World Evangelist (Not a high bar. He graduated from Detroit Bible College in 1951 and married Rexella Shelton in 1952. All of their programs not only have regional accreditation, they hold programmatically as well.I respect your effort to flush out these fakes..they should be exposed. But is typically as rigorous as a Phd? But a Phd is an academic degree which is designed to make you an expert in your field of study. They simply believe things that religious people dont. Oh, how she loved having them not just for the lunchtime, but for the fellowship in the Lord. I wonder how relevant any of the rankings are when you consider the scandal at UNC Chapel Hill? The mortal threat from Iran. Professors are not given a curriculum to teach. These televangelists are completely unequipped to discuss theology on any academic level. (. The entire bible is true, but we give weight in order of our preferences. But I was talking about religious people using religious (fake) degrees in a religious environment. But he invites them to speak at his church! She was also a co-host of her husbands TV series. Once again a real degree from a real school. In the case of Vince, I had a program at the time that filtered the website for language. One more error about a pastor finishing his degree. Thanks! Their goal is to teach students to think for themselves and not just repeat things they heard. Dr. VanImpe was born February 9, 1931, in Freeport, Michigan, to Oscar and Marie Louise VanImpe. He, also, embraced a false doctrine but you arent willing to be politically incorrect .. Married to Jack Van Impe . The kingdom of Christ will sweep away all economic conflict and will provide fair and enjoyable working conditions. Also making money isnt a sin ! You dont understand the issue. Booby Palooka You are just a poor, stupid fool. The Worst Televangelist Product Scams Of All Time, 15 Christian Leaders That Make More Money Getting Out Of Bed Than Youll Make All Year. Contact information Mailing address: Jack Van Impe Ministries PO Box 7004 Troy, MI 48007-7004 Website: www.jvim.com Phone: (248) 852-2244 Email: jvimi@jvim.com Organization details EIN: 381956052 CEO/President: Dr. Rexella Van Impe Chairman: Board size: 8 Founder: Dr. Jack Van Impe Ruling year: 1971 Tax deductible: Yes Fiscal year end: 12/31 In fact, most seminaries use text books from dozens of other schools. Things Ive Learned In Church | Entry #6: Videos Games Are Evil, Acts Devotional Commentary [Acts 10:29-43] Peter Preaches at Corneliuss House, Not even to congress when they requested it, operating in conjunction with the Richey Evangelistic Temple, ordained a Catholic Priest by the Episcopal church, Canonical List of Pastors & Teachers With Fake Doctorates Dust Off The Bible, https://www.franklinpublishing.net/featureedition.html, https://www.associationchristianeducators.net/1.html, https://www.facebook.com/InternationalApostolicPropheticCouncil/, Scam Alert: Manasseh Jordan Posing as "Saint Mary's Prayer Center Ministry" | Dust Off The Bible, Louisiana Baptist vs Trinity Theological Seminary, North Carolina Cult, Word of Faith Fellowship, Finally Starting Trial For Abuse Allegations | Dust Off The Bible, Blood Moon Tetrads: The 2015 Bible Prophecy That Will Be Blowing Up Social Media In September | | Dust Off The Bible, Do you ever wonder where the money goes when you donate to RBN and their phony SHARE A THON? This is why when students turn to someone for answers about theology or the Bible they turn to a Phd holder, not a Dmin. But you have given me much to take before God, and I appreciate listening to your perception of the situation, so for that I thank you. Dr. Jack Van Impe is naming names in "Beware: False Prophets, Damnable Heresies & Doctrines of Demons."God has given Jack and Rexella a desperately needed me. In fact, of all the wolves in sheeps clothing, youre the only one who chooses to wear white wool suites almost exclusively.. coincidence? Doctor is mentioned one time in the Bible. Jack Van Impe Ministries I am also a ordained minister and I am studying bible prophecy and I was inspired by watching both of you. Rexella has never confirmed that she has had cosmetic surgery. Earned PhD in Theology, from Life Christian University. * Honorably Discharged U. S. Army Officer (Not sure why this is noteworthy) How can you call that a quality education? But should you be banned for having a dissenting opinion? They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them (Isaiah 65:21 23). Renowned evangelist and Bible prophecy expert Dr. Jack Van Impe, 88, was welcomed home to heaven on Saturday, January 18, 2020 received by the blessed Savior and Lord he had faithfully served. Enrolled at Oral Roberts University, but no degree earned. Rexella Van Impe is televangelist Jack Van Impe's wife. Now we have the Department of Education telling believers whats a legitimate biblical education. But, I would still rather be a Liberty grad than a UNC grad with a degree in AFAM. I would love to know how you would know anything about me.. And I dont believe for a second that any televangelist has raised anyone from the dead. Esther the queen was a very resourceful woman. Joel Olsteen learned this the hard way; Oprah and the world gang demanded a different stance on same-sex relationships than the stance that Paul (and Christ) had on them. UNC validated over 20 years of fraudulent classes in the AFAM department. The wheat; and the chaff. More about Rexella Van Impe edit Dating History Grid # 1 Jack Van Impe 4 1 1952 53:6). Why not just use the degree as a knowledge base and get a real one in the process if you feel you need one to preach the Gospel? In fact, one of the cards I received not long ago was from a high school friend who often experienced my moms hospitality. (. Repeating a prayer does not bring peace with God. 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? It is almost 100 people already. Arrogant is not too strong a word for you, sir! I was not claiming that its not. the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin (1 John 1:7). She had tender and loving ways. I would mostly agree. Ironically, of all the televangelists on this list you were probably the one least needing a fake degree. I truly hope God has rescued some people away from his church. And she devised a way to counter the evil plot of her enemies and save her people. Thanks for reading and thanks for the suggestion. And Mother just smiled. Admin, It seems that you dont understand what accreditation is used for and why it exists Spot on! They still remain unaccredited by any recognized institution. Apart from prophetic revelation, one might doubt that lasting peace in the Middle East will ever be more than a Jewish dream. Dr. Jack Van Impe* Demons And Exorcism! The average accredited seminary student has read around 50,000+ pages of study and were also required to write research papers for the given classes. A copy of Dr. Kent Hovinds dissertation can be located via google if you would like to see the quality of work required to obtain a degree. Then, putting my face close to hers, I whispered, Will you be praying tomorrow? And she said, Yes., And she softly replied, I love you more!. That is why they learn Greek, Hebrew, history, etc. Some of our ladies would often join Mother for lunch. The Millennium will bring economic peace. LCUs credits are transferable to ORU and other places like Andersonville Theological Seminary and many others. What show was it? You provide hope and courage to so many with your bold style. Televangelists who put Dr. before their names yet have no actual education do it for only one reason to seem legit and educated so people will buy into whatever they are selling. However, there is a quote of hers that may have something to do with the speculations: Unlike the cosmetic changes that people sometimes make to camouflage and cover up what they feel is not right about themselves , Gods makeover transforms individuals completely, changing them from the inside out.. A school cant issue a degree unless its authorized by its state government. So for now, just concentrate on letting people see the real youwho you really are right now. And she impressed on me the importance of inward beauty. If you have the cash and can pay for a research aid and editor (which most do) it takes a large part of the burden off of the student. * Computer Industry Pioneer & Multi-millionaire (I could not find what he actually pioneered but it looks like it was in the 60s. Others from the living center also came to visit my mother in the hospital. 94897. So since the passing of my dear mom to her eternal home a couple of years ago, Ive been trying to adjust to a world that seems a bit empty now because of the absence of her physical presence. Wheres your list of legit accrediting agencies? Consequently, I used G. A. Riplinger, which signifies to me, God and Riplinger God as author and Riplinger as secretary.[1] David Cloud calls this statement amazing and frightful, and says that even the most radical charismatic prophets hesitate to use such intemperate language. My earliest recollection of anything is of being in my mothers arms and hearing her singing. I hear this is legal, and they can use the title "Doctor", as long as it's for religious reasons. Most of these schools are legal entities, (last time I checked) we have whats called a separation of church and state in this country. (. 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brothers eye. Oh, Mama, he cried, youre going to go home. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice den (Isaiah 11:6 8). I am not advocating for fake schools that require no course work and only wants money for a degree, but there are real schools with real course work offering legitimate degrees. No one would say hes not worthy of a J.D., even though he never had a formal education. Dr. Jack Van Impe has been declaring the truth of Bible prophecy since 1948 and continues to be a leading voice in declaring the soon return of the Savior. She sang as she did her housework. Denis Otero has an interesting record. (Video 1, Video 2) I am saddened by this turn of events because I thought Johhny M had some integrity. Ill see make a list though. It appears as though Hagee likely transfered away from this school rather than completing his diploma. But lets not get too excited yet. Lot of 2 DRS JACK/REXELLA VAN IMPE DVD Sets ~ False Prophets & Pope Francis. Food will be plentiful and there will be sufficient housing for all: And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. Though, Im as guilty as the next guy when it comes to abrasive language. Dr. Jack Van . There is a reason why seminary professors have Phds and not Dmins and its because a Phd prepares you to be an expert in an academic field, not and expert in a professional field. Traduzioni in contesto per "scoperta che i" in italiano-francese da Reverso Context: Il gioco termina con la scoperta che i ladri degli attrezzi erano i figli dello stesso Tim, i quali volevano mettere alla prova la virilit del padre. Then coupled with the 2nd, taking Gods (and what God represents) name in vain, simple tests needing to be passed? You have spent zero time understanding what accreditation means and way too much time blindly repeating lines that you heard from somewhere else. He is also one of the only big time prosperity preachers that does not have a fake or honorary doctorate degree. Here is the address: 500 Oxford Drive, Dayton, Tennessee 37321), Doctor of Ministry, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary religion, philosophy, and counseling (This is a real school that I highly doubt we graduate from since they dont have Doctorate degrees that include religion, philosophy, and counseling. 4 weeks no symptoms mumsnet; william . it is hekataiosamerikos@yahoo.com. Is a JD fluff? Its faith because we believe despite not having a complete knowledge of all things. $10.95. Who cares if they have a degree or not, I dont listen to them anyway, anymore I should say. Ive been to law school (didnt graduate), but I would not be able to enter the same room as some of the founding fathers who were self-educated. Earned PhD in Theology, from Life Christian University(LCU). Entdecke Another Hiltler Rising Dr. Jack Van Impe Ministries VHS in groer Auswahl Vergleichen Angebote und Preise Online kaufen bei eBay Kostenlose Lieferung fr viele Artikel! There may be some pride of life, but if they are raising people from the dead, and you are not(not that I know of any of these who do, with the exception of Benny Hinn, who is anointed), go stand in line for your degree too. The faith she left with me links me with eternity and clothes me with peace. Many of their professors are under-educated or they were educated within Oral Roberts. But God called me a Christian Strategist(had never heard the term, but now that I have seen another, I am relieved). I am not being proud. Whether she was happy or had a heavy heart, she always had joy that came out in her singing. Dr. Dr. Herbert Barber Sadly, we wont be hearing from Dr. Dino until he gets released from prison for tax fraud (update: he was released on July 8th, 2015). The only reason these televangelists are wealthy is because they take money from gullible people who dont know any better. Kenny Kenny Kenny. They are not a read educational institution. If your school only requires a student to show up to 3 classes and read 1 book and have no final exams. Very sad. She was a humble (but blunt!) One reason her pastor preached powerfully was that he had mother praying for him faithfully. But Im mostly focusing on divinity degrees. Honestly speaking you are losing site of the goal in life ! Somehow he has managed to get the attention of some big players in the Hebrew Roots organization, such as Michael Rood and has even spoken at credible churches like The Vineyard. Rexella Van Impe, born on November 29, 1932 in Missouri. He KNEW the truth, but the truth was suppressed for expediency. I think it develops from ones environment. No one said you needed a degree just that having fake ones is deceptive. They have no educated staff or any staff at all. We will all meet our maker. What did these great giants of theology do to earn their Doctorate degrees? Thus, accreditation sets a bar for academic studies. PO Box 7004, Troy, MI 48007-7004 Most of these people dont even use the honorary degree titles they are given. Add in the easy to blow up idea that the Bible is the perfect word of God and you have a silly group of religious basket cases refusing to investigate the claims for fear theyll lose their faith. How could I ever find words to adequately express the great blessing of having a godly mother?